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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:58 pm 
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One other thing that was sort of mentioned already. We need people to officiate these races (grid marshals, scoring, etc). I knew a few racers participate in those activities (Drew, Adam, etc) and I would imagine if they have to race both time periods it would be harder to do. Do we think we can get enough non-racer help to officiate double the number of races? Race clinic is another thing that will need attention next year. I know I had a hard time helping with it this year just racing the noon race. I wanted to be much more involved and I feel bad about not helping Steve out as much as I would have liked to. I'm not sure if we yet have some hard volunteers to run it next year, and how that would fit into their racing. Just things to think about.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:35 am 
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KGivenCF44 wrote:
bumpnzx3 wrote:
All of the talk about using a practice/track day session for qualifying doesn't really matter. We cannot have qualifying take place during a normal lapping session- that's not safe for anyone involved.


Agreed. The way it is set up now is honestly best or going to a points based grid after the first round.

What about starting the first track day session at 8:30 or 8:45 instead of 9 to free up a little extra time for a 2 sprint race per class format?


We'll have to review the contracts and see if there are any track going green time restrictions. First Advance session starts at 8:30 at NCM.

Would be less time for riders to get through registration, tech and a have a riders meeting, but I don't think this is an issue. Jim's riders meetings at Gateway were perfect!

I like the idea of points determining your grid position, the first race of the season you could be gridded off your position overall in the points from the previous year. Just an idea.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:37 am 
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DCMoney wrote:
I like the idea of points determining your grid position, the first race of the season you could be gridded off your position overall in the points from the previous year. Just an idea.


In cases where people didnt race the previous year or at the previous race, would it default back to gridding in order of registration?

This is just me, but I have no issue with the gridding as it is now. I have more of an issue with doing the single wave starts between GTL and ULGT/250. If we continue to run these classes together, we HAVE to do something to try and get the groups a little more spread out from each other.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:45 pm 
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green_bread wrote:
DCMoney wrote:
I like the idea of points determining your grid position, the first race of the season you could be gridded off your position overall in the points from the previous year. Just an idea.


In cases where people didnt race the previous year or at the previous race, would it default back to gridding in order of registration?

This is just me, but I have no issue with the gridding as it is now. I have more of an issue with doing the single wave starts between GTL and ULGT/250. If we continue to run these classes together, we HAVE to do something to try and get the groups a little more spread out from each other.


As far as I can see new racers would grid after the last current racer.

As cool as this would be it would really cause more work for registration. Would be nice to know who stood where in the points by looking at the start of the race.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:56 pm 
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I like the gridding idea.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:10 pm 
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CMRA does it by when you register for the first race, followed by points in all the other races.

Having said that, I still like everything being completely based off when you register for my own selfish reasons :)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:40 am 
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To add my two cents to the discussion, I've now retired from track days and racing, and one of the factors that I took into account in not racing this year, is that I found a 25 minute race simply too tiring, I'm quite old after all! If the races were shorter I would have likely enjoyed it rather more (and not got lapped so much).

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:22 pm 
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My $.02 (x4)

Personally I like being rewarded for being in shape. I actually use the 25 minute race as motivation to get my workouts in. Leads to a healthier me :-) But I wouldn't be opposed to 2 races if logistics could be worked out and there was enough interest since I'm getting old also.

I personally do not like the idea of only having 1 Expert/Amateur designation. Rather we need to bump many more people into Expert on a yearly basis and not just class champions. There are guys running 10s or better at GMP, <23 at Hallett, <16 at Putnam, <2:02 at NCM, etc... who need to be bumped. I know for a fact other race orgs basically give fast guys 1 season in AM before the boot. Of course some people game the system for more than 1 year by switching orgs or sitting out select races.

At the beginning of the year I proposed that GTL start behind 250/ULGT. The reasoning is that fast GTL guys will pick there way through the smaller bikes quite easily while intermediate GTL guys would never catch up to the front running 250/ULGT. 2 wave start.

And please quit saying that 250's go faster in corners than the bigger bikes. This has been disproven time and time again with radar guns, timing sensors and GPS data. What you are mostly seeing is rider ability not bike differences. Now possibly mid-corner speed of a classic racing line is higher than corner speed of a point and shoot line...but that should only be the case where a point and shoot approach actually gets through the entire corner and down the next straight faster by employing this style. So while the smaller bike might feel a bit stuffed mid-corner the big bike would feel stuffed on corner exit. Since I really don't think SV's make enough power to gain time by getting the bike slowed down, turned, and back on the fat part of the tire for acceleration we are back to rider ability.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:22 pm 
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I personally would like the sprint races given the fact the 25 minute races typically get boring for the entire 25 minute race where a 6-8 lap sprint keeps everything exciting and close for the length of the races. All the other suggestions on starts, grids, etc I'm good with, just not a fan of the 25 minute races.

On another note, I would be happy to help out with the race clinic in 2016.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:14 pm 
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tfs32 wrote:
So who pays for the added track time if you go to that format? If you add an hour to the day that cost money, are you going to make the track day guys pay for it? They complain for the fact they only get 6 sessions while every other organizations is 7 or 8, and the cost is the same as them.

So now MCRA has to pay that price for the extra hour of track time, and we all know the races alone will not cover that cost.

I know this is an organization that races, but we always seem to forget about the Track day rider that is truly paying to rent the track so we can race....

I say drop the races at the end of the day, put two 6 lap sprints in at lunch and give the track day folks their 7th session.

Thanks Tommy (and everyone else) for speaking up for the Track guys. HOWEVER, it does thin out as others have stated. The exception I remember from 2013-14 would be HPT. They had a 7th session with a decent amount of participants. I would NOT oppose shaving 5 minutes from the 6th session. Mind you that I'm just one person, can't speak for anyone else :)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:11 pm 
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sdiver68 wrote:
My $.02 (x4)

And please quit saying that 250's go faster in corners than the bigger bikes. This has been disproven time and time again with radar guns, timing sensors and GPS data. What you are mostly seeing is rider ability not bike differences. Now possibly mid-corner speed of a classic racing line is higher than corner speed of a point and shoot line...but that should only be the case where a point and shoot approach actually gets through the entire corner and down the next straight faster by employing this style. So while the smaller bike might feel a bit stuffed mid-corner the big bike would feel stuffed on corner exit. Since I really don't think SV's make enough power to gain time by getting the bike slowed down, turned, and back on the fat part of the tire for acceleration we are back to rider ability.



My GPS data confirms this as well. Also agree its rider ability and not the bikes.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:53 am 
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Talking over multiple races last night with Steve, think we might have come up with a doable multiple race weekend solution.

Event 1 Saturday: Would have the normal 25 minute GT race at 1pm. GTL/ULGT would have their normal 25 minute race at let's say 4:45. Following the GTL/ULGT race we would have a Sprint (10 minute) GT Race.

Event 1 Sunday: Would have the normal 25 minute GTL/ULGT race at 1pm. GT would have their normal 25 minute race at let's say 4:30 (no mock race sunday). Following the GT race we would have a Sprint (10 minute) GTL/ULGT Race.

Event 2 the schedule could flop (Saturday GTL/ULGT at 1) keeping things interesting/"fair"...

What do you guys think?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:36 am 
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DCMoney wrote:
Talking over multiple races last night with Steve, think we might have come up with a doable multiple race weekend solution.

Event 1 Saturday: Would have the normal 25 minute GT race at 1pm. GTL/ULGT would have their normal 25 minute race at let's say 4:45. Following the GTL/ULGT race we would have a Sprint (10 minute) GT Race.

Event 1 Sunday: Would have the normal 25 minute GTL/ULGT race at 1pm. GT would have their normal 25 minute race at let's say 4:30 (no mock race sunday). Following the GT race we would have a Sprint (10 minute) GTL/ULGT Race.

Event 2 the schedule could flop (Saturday GTL/ULGT at 1) keeping things interesting/"fair"...

What do you guys think?


Just to add to this the end result is everyone gets the opportunity for 3 races per weekend per class. So on my 600 I would get a 25 minute race each day and 1 sprint race on either Saturday or Sunday.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:35 am 
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In the current format, there are three rider categories: Novice, Intermediate and Advanced. Each of these categories gets six, 20 minute sessions per day totaling two hours of riding (the exception being NCM 10/17-18).

What if there were only two categories of rider, say A and B? Faster intermediates would go to A with slower intermediates going to B. This would result in six, 30 minute sessions per day totaling three hours of riding. That is an increase of an entire hour of track time per day!

Now, if in the afternoon of each day the sessions were reduced to 25 minutes rather than 30, riders would still get a total of 2 hours and 45 minutes of riding (increase of 45 minutes to current format) and 30 minutes would be available for more (sprint) racing.

The obvious concern is overcrowding or having too broad of skill level in each category. I have ridden with organizations that use the two category format (TrackAddix/Ducati Omaha) and have been surprised how this is not the case. The longer sessions tend to spread riders out; Some riders enter/exit the session early while others enter/exit the session later. This alleviates congestion, which in turn allows more space for faster riders to make clean passes.

MCRA has already introduced the inside passing rule in the current intermediate category to help foster skills and prepare potential racers. This would continue and would likely be less intimidating to the slower riders in the current intermediate category.


Last edited by chriscpope on Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:08 pm 
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I think the overcrowding thing that you mention would be a problem. I believe we currently limit the number of riders on the track at one time based on track length. So, I don't think we could increase the number in each of those 2 classes, or at least not by much. That would reduce the total number of entries allowed by 1/3 (or close to it) which would also mean we would have to raise the price of entry which probably also wouldn't go over well.

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Last edited by crash on Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:25 pm 
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That is definitely a problem with this idea. TrackAddix/Ducati Omaha do charge more for their events, but likely justify it with the increased track time.

Could the money from increased race entries offset the potentially reduced money paid by track day riders?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:45 pm 
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So we need to make up lost time somewhere, lets use some exaggerated numbers for effect. With 6 races in 3 classes that 18 different sessions throughout the day. If it takes 10 minutes for a group to clear the course and a new to enter after their session is over that's 180 minutes of unused time throughout the day. Even if it's only 5 minutes we can make up 90 minutes of time.

What if we cut it down to 4 30 minute sessions (still 3 classes) we make up 60 min of time. Same amount of track time, less getting in and off the track and more time for racing!

So your arguing that it only takes 5 minutes of time to exchange groups, well then we save 30 minutes, still enough time to run 1 extra sprint race every day!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:47 pm 
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DCMoney wrote:
Talking over multiple races last night with Steve, think we might have come up with a doable multiple race weekend solution.

Event 1 Saturday: Would have the normal 25 minute GT race at 1pm. GTL/ULGT would have their normal 25 minute race at let's say 4:45. Following the GTL/ULGT race we would have a Sprint (10 minute) GT Race.

Event 1 Sunday: Would have the normal 25 minute GTL/ULGT race at 1pm. GT would have their normal 25 minute race at let's say 4:30 (no mock race sunday). Following the GT race we would have a Sprint (10 minute) GTL/ULGT Race.

Event 2 the schedule could flop (Saturday GTL/ULGT at 1) keeping things interesting/"fair"...

What do you guys think?



While I like this idea as it switches up race times and adds more racing. I don't see how adding a sprint race to the end helps with the time constraints of the track day rider. I really think that cutting down on the race time and adding more track day time would make more since.

Current race time takes up roughly 1 hr of the day. I would think that running 4 (10 min) sprint races would take up that same amount of time while adding 2 more races each day. My thought would even be to spread out those 4 races during the day which would allow for those not racing in that race to help with the other class of race.

Example:

First race at 11am (GT)
Second at 1pm (ULGT/LGT)
Third at 3pm (GT)
Last at 5pm (ULGT/LGT)

This format would also cut down on the larger break during lunch for the trackday riders by mixing the races in throughout the day as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:29 pm 
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KGivenCF44 wrote:
DCMoney wrote:
Talking over multiple races last night with Steve, think we might have come up with a doable multiple race weekend solution.

Event 1 Saturday: Would have the normal 25 minute GT race at 1pm. GTL/ULGT would have their normal 25 minute race at let's say 4:45. Following the GTL/ULGT race we would have a Sprint (10 minute) GT Race.

Event 1 Sunday: Would have the normal 25 minute GTL/ULGT race at 1pm. GT would have their normal 25 minute race at let's say 4:30 (no mock race sunday). Following the GT race we would have a Sprint (10 minute) GTL/ULGT Race.

Event 2 the schedule could flop (Saturday GTL/ULGT at 1) keeping things interesting/"fair"...

What do you guys think?



While I like this idea as it switches up race times and adds more racing. I don't see how adding a sprint race to the end helps with the time constraints of the track day rider. I really think that cutting down on the race time and adding more track day time would make more since.

Current race time takes up roughly 1 hr of the day. I would think that running 4 (10 min) sprint races would take up that same amount of time while adding 2 more races each day. My thought would even be to spread out those 4 races during the day which would allow for those not racing in that race to help with the other class of race.

Example:

First race at 11am (GT)
Second at 1pm (ULGT/LGT)
Third at 3pm (GT)
Last at 5pm (ULGT/LGT)

This format would also cut down on the larger break during lunch for the trackday riders by mixing the races in throughout the day as well.


Like the idea.

Need proposals on what to do about fees, payouts, if fees drop in price, who pays for trophies.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:37 pm 
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Magruder13 wrote:
So we need to make up lost time somewhere, lets use some exaggerated numbers for effect. With 6 races in 3 classes that 18 different sessions throughout the day. If it takes 10 minutes for a group to clear the course and a new to enter after their session is over that's 180 minutes of unused time throughout the day. Even if it's only 5 minutes we can make up 90 minutes of time.

What if we cut it down to 4 30 minute sessions (still 3 classes) we make up 60 min of time. Same amount of track time, less getting in and off the track and more time for racing!

So your arguing that it only takes 5 minutes of time to exchange groups, well then we save 30 minutes, still enough time to run 1 extra sprint race every day!


There's very little down time between sessions, as soon as all bikes in the ending session are off track the next group is sent.

Down time comes from crashes or bikes that have mechanical issues and need to be picked up, fluid spills on the track, and medical emergencies. And it's not really down time, it's more of time loss for another session or if it's bad enough time taken away from a race or both.


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