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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:10 am 
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exalted512 wrote:



Now to save time, I'm all for combined races -- even with one wave starts. Put 3-4 rows between experts and novices and let them all start out at the same time. I actually prefer this for a few different reasons. If you have small expert grids, it might help some of the slower experts be able to have some fun racing some of the faster novices. The faster novices will also benefit to be able to catch a tow from some of the faster guys - and will also help those novices dip their toes into expert racing instead of just being 'thrown to the wolves'. I know it's helped me tremendously when I've raced in some combined expert/novice grid races as a novice.


-Cody


Hey now, Don't bring me into this...
I know I'm a mid-pack expert rider and don't need to be reminded... LOL

Seriously tho, If you have a 1 wave start and keep experts up front, where they should be, and amateurs in back, and scored separately I don't see a problem. Expert grids are usually small anyway so there won't be too many bikes on grid. As for the fast amateurs, grid them ahead of the slower ones. You can use track-day lap times as qualifying times to grid them. Heck, you can do that for everyone for that matter...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:21 am 
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You can use track-day lap times as qualifying times to grid them. Heck, you can do that for everyone for that matter...


Other than the cost and work involved in keeping track of everyones lap times, why don't we do this already? You could have it where the last track day session before the race is your chance to qualify, if you don't part take you're automatically put in the back of the grid.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:31 am 
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I believe it isn't done now because of when the grids are posted. The amount of time it would take the timing and scoring folks to come up with a grid based on those lap times, then get the grids posted would put the posting right before the race. I think they try and post them an hour before the race to give people ample time to check them and know their starting positions. I don't expect the T&S people to work through the lunch break, either. Just like most other stuff being discussed, it's all about time constraints.

One other thought on combining expert/amateur races. Think of the MotoGP format where you have factory/satellite/open classes. They all run together and are on vastly different bikes. There is one podium, but there is also a points chase for top satellite and top open. Basically, three different championships being run off of a single race/points. Not saying this is a perfect system. Just throwing it out there as an idea for discussion.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:32 am 
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Noidly1 wrote:

Hey now, Don't bring me into this...
I know I'm a mid-pack expert rider and don't need to be reminded... LOL

Seriously tho, If you have a 1 wave start and keep experts up front, where they should be, and amateurs in back, and scored separately I don't see a problem. Expert grids are usually small anyway so there won't be too many bikes on grid. As for the fast amateurs, grid them ahead of the slower ones. You can use track-day lap times as qualifying times to grid them. Heck, you can do that for everyone for that matter...


As a future slow expert racer, I'd much rather be dicing it up with the fast novices than turning laps by myself. Especially if I don't have to worry about them hurting what place I get :D Like I said, I would be all for a single wave start for expert and novice, just put the novices 3-4 rows back. This also prevents someone from being on a hot track splitting the experts and novices. Yeah, you're supposed to have your hand in the air...but we all know things happen.

I like the current way of going by when you register, as an outsider, as it gives me a chance to be in the front of the grid. Although if I was a regular, which I think you should cater to, I don't see why you wouldn't go by overall season points.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:32 am 
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Magruder13 wrote:
Quote:
You can use track-day lap times as qualifying times to grid them. Heck, you can do that for everyone for that matter...


Other than the cost and work involved in keeping track of everyones lap times, why don't we do this already? You could have it where the last track day session before the race is your chance to qualify, if you don't part take you're automatically put in the back of the grid.


If someone would be willing to come and volunteer their time at every event looking over T&S then make the grid sheet I think it could work. It would have to be best time throughout the day (before your race). Most of our CR's (if not all) are also racers and it could be difficult for them to do their job as a CR and get in a few good laps to qualify with if only given 1 session.

raven21 wrote:
If combining expert and amateur counts for contingency grid spots im game for it as long as they are still allowed to run whatever color number plate as they are classified as with other orgs. I hate to see some of the 390 guys swapping plates between weekends to race with 2 orgs.


Agreed, if combined (most likely won't happen) the way I see it as long as your number is visible at speed you can run whatever color plate you want. Would affect GT/GTL guys that also run CCS WERA etc when 250GT was the only class didn't matter what color plate you had. If 250GT goes away ULGT number plate won't matter any longer.

green_bread wrote:
I believe it isn't done now because of when the grids are posted. The amount of time it would take the timing and scoring folks to come up with a grid based on those lap times, then get the grids posted would put the posting right before the race. I think they try and post them an hour before the race to give people ample time to check them and know their starting positions. I don't expect the T&S people to work through the lunch break, either. Just like most other stuff being discussed, it's all about time constraints.

One other thought on combining expert/amateur races. Think of the MotoGP format where you have factory/satellite/open classes. They all run together and are on vastly different bikes. There is one podium, but there is also a points chase for top satellite and top open. Basically, three different championships being run off of a single race/points. Not saying this is a perfect system. Just throwing it out there as an idea for discussion.


I like this idea but at the same time racers would want to know who they are really racing against and we would be back to a AM/EX race.

Noidly1 wrote:
exalted512 wrote:



Now to save time, I'm all for combined races -- even with one wave starts. Put 3-4 rows between experts and novices and let them all start out at the same time. I actually prefer this for a few different reasons. If you have small expert grids, it might help some of the slower experts be able to have some fun racing some of the faster novices. The faster novices will also benefit to be able to catch a tow from some of the faster guys - and will also help those novices dip their toes into expert racing instead of just being 'thrown to the wolves'. I know it's helped me tremendously when I've raced in some combined expert/novice grid races as a novice.


-Cody


Hey now, Don't bring me into this...
I know I'm a mid-pack expert rider and don't need to be reminded... LOL

Seriously tho, If you have a 1 wave start and keep experts up front, where they should be, and amateurs in back, and scored separately I don't see a problem. Expert grids are usually small anyway so there won't be too many bikes on grid. As for the fast amateurs, grid them ahead of the slower ones. You can use track-day lap times as qualifying times to grid them. Heck, you can do that for everyone for that matter...


Our races are already combined Amateur Expert, and what you put describes our current race format.

Magruder13 wrote:
Hey guys, tell me your thoughts on this, why don't we do some races Saturday and different ones on Sunday? How many people run Saturday and Sunday vs one day or the other? Grids might be more full and we can free up track time? Trying to put some outside perspective into this. Please don't hate me!


Right now most of our racers race both days, some even both classes (GT and GTL/or 250GT) both days. I don't think racers would like only getting to race once per weekend. I know I wouldn't.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:56 am 
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DCMoney wrote:

Our races are already combined Amateur Expert, and what you put describes our current race format.


The only thing I'd change is make it a single wave start.


DCMoney wrote:
Right now most of our racers race both days, some even both classes (GT and GTL/or 250GT) both days. I don't think racers would like only getting to race once per weekend. I know I wouldn't.

I wouldn't come up if I could only do 1 race.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:45 am 
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exalted512 wrote:
DCMoney wrote:
Right now most of our racers race both days, some even both classes (GT and GTL/or 250GT) both days. I don't think racers would like only getting to race once per weekend. I know I wouldn't.

I wouldn't come up if I could only do 1 race.



I know that this all falls back to time and not taking away from track day riders. This last quote really shows how going to 2 sprints/class/day would most likely attract more people to MCRA. The one time a day racing is great and I like being able to do track days and racing. I also truly enjoy gridding up 4-5 races a day in the CCS sprint format.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:53 am 
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All the input has been great everybody. The program has been working pretty good so far. The combining of the ranks was motivated in part by the lack of participation in the expert ranks. Low turn out in the experts also makes it difficult for contingency to work. Also we consider our races to be endurance races and they do not have an expert/novice distinction traditionally speaking.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:07 am 
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rainman wrote:
Also we consider our races to be endurance races and they do not have an expert/novice distinction traditionally speaking.


I'd say it's true that most endurance races traditionally have no expert/novice distinction, but even though you need 'endurance' for a 25 minute race, I would think most other organizations would consider it a sprint race. CMRA has a 'solo 30' race that's 1 rider for 30 minutes and it falls under sprint rules.

Again, under CMRA rules, they define an Endurance Race as 'a long-distance timed event for multiple riders, sharing the same motorcycle, with pit stops to add fuel as well as change riders and tires. Events generally range from 4-8 hours in length..."

I'm not trying to impose CMRA rules on MCRA, I love the uniqueness of your organization and appreciate the track day and race combo. Just bringing up that combining expert/novice based on most endurance race rules is true, but most organizations wouldn't consider a single-rider, 25-minute race an endurance race.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:22 pm 
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DCMoney wrote:
If someone would be willing to come and volunteer their time at every event looking over T&S then make the grid sheet I think it could work. It would have to be best time throughout the day (before your race). Most of our CR's (if not all) are also racers and it could be difficult for them to do their job as a CR and get in a few good laps to qualify with if only given 1 session.


I was suggesting that you only look at one track session per day. For instance if we stick to how the racing is now (noon and evening) then those qualifying for the noon race would use their best time in the 2nd track session of the day, for those in the evening race we use their 5th track session times. This would give the timing people a full hour to prepare the grid and post it. I would get a white board and write everyone number in the grid position and have it posted where they drive onto the track and once they go onto the track stick a post-it note on their tank of their position. I would love to volunteer to do this to make it more smooth (and hopefully more fun) for everyone but I would have to get permission to attend every track day next year from the girlfriend.

Lets see how we decide on the scheduling before we get too in-depth in procedures.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:42 pm 
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Magruder13 wrote:
DCMoney wrote:
If someone would be willing to come and volunteer their time at every event looking over T&S then make the grid sheet I think it could work. It would have to be best time throughout the day (before your race). Most of our CR's (if not all) are also racers and it could be difficult for them to do their job as a CR and get in a few good laps to qualify with if only given 1 session.


I was suggesting that you only look at one track session per day. For instance if we stick to how the racing is now (noon and evening) then those qualifying for the noon race would use their best time in the 2nd track session of the day, for those in the evening race we use their 5th track session times. This would give the timing people a full hour to prepare the grid and post it. I would get a white board and write everyone number in the grid position and have it posted where they drive onto the track and once they go onto the track stick a post-it note on their tank of their position. I would love to volunteer to do this to make it more smooth (and hopefully more fun) for everyone but I would have to get permission to attend every track day next year from the girlfriend.

Lets see how we decide on the scheduling before we get too in-depth in procedures.


If I miss the 2nd session because I'm helping someone or have bike problems I don't get to grid?

Would love for you to come help out at a track weekend!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:13 pm 
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DCMoney wrote:
ping someone or have bike problems I don't get to grid?

Would love for you to come help out at a track weekend!


Have you ever missed a race because you were helping someone? If we make it a part of racing then it's tough shit, you start at the back of the grid.

I would love to start helping out, I have only been to one track day and I already want to be more involved. I pulled in at 1:01pm at Gateway on Friday to help setup! I'm pretty techy and might be able to help make things to automate or speed up track day processes but that's for another thread.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:20 pm 
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I'll vouch for Magruder13. He came in at 1 and helped us all afternoon and judging from his activity in this thread he must have had a good time on his first track day. Thanks for the help!! Looking forward to seeing you out there more! As Drew and I both race and also do a lot of other things for MCRA it would be much harder for us if we had to race twice a day and still do the duties we do with the club. Usually the folks that help over lunch hour race in the afternoon and those that help in the afternoon more race at noon as it is now. Many of the racers also do other things like tech, teach the race clinic, teach the Novice clinic, control ride, lead the TTT, etc. It's definitely an extremely full day!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:55 pm 
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crash wrote:
I'll vouch for Magruder13. He came in at 1 and helped us all afternoon and judging from his activity in this thread he must have had a good time on his first track day. Thanks for the help!! Looking forward to seeing you out there more!



The day of the event was meh, it was fun but I didn't know if I would want to do it again. Now every single time I ride my bike it's boring as !@#$. I need speed, I need difficult turns... I'm not taking the withdrawal very well...


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:38 am 
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Magruder13 wrote:
DCMoney wrote:
ping someone or have bike problems I don't get to grid?

Would love for you to come help out at a track weekend!


Have you ever missed a race because you were helping someone? If we make it a part of racing then it's tough poop, you start at the back of the grid.

I would love to start helping out, I have only been to one track day and I already want to be more involved. I pulled in at 1:01pm at Gateway on Friday to help setup! I'm pretty techy and might be able to help make things to automate or speed up track day processes but that's for another thread.


Never missed a race, but this year I've done maybe 10-15 laps in Advance, yes my choice, but like Todd said we (and others) put our duty to the members and club before our own track time.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:09 pm 
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DCMoney wrote:
Magruder13 wrote:
DCMoney wrote:
ping someone or have bike problems I don't get to grid?

Would love for you to come help out at a track weekend!


Have you ever missed a race because you were helping someone? If we make it a part of racing then it's tough poop, you start at the back of the grid.

I would love to start helping out, I have only been to one track day and I already want to be more involved. I pulled in at 1:01pm at Gateway on Friday to help setup! I'm pretty techy and might be able to help make things to automate or speed up track day processes but that's for another thread.


Never missed a race, but this year I've done maybe 10-15 laps in Advance, yes my choice, but like Todd said we (and others) put our duty to the members and club before our own track time.



I would be more than happy to help out with anything that is needed. At Gateway I decided to spend more time in the pits than I had at all the previous events which was nice, but I also realized I don't need a ton of track time and would love to help out with anything the club needs. I'll be there mid day on Friday at NCM and can help tear down after the event as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:59 pm 
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Awesome! Thanks Kyle!!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:53 pm 
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All of the talk about using a practice/track day session for qualifying doesn't really matter. We cannot have qualifying take place during a normal lapping session- that's not safe for anyone involved.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:58 pm 
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bumpnzx3 wrote:
All of the talk about using a practice/track day session for qualifying doesn't really matter. We cannot have qualifying take place during a normal lapping session- that's not safe for anyone involved.


Agreed. The way it is set up now is honestly best or going to a points based grid after the first round.

What about starting the first track day session at 8:30 or 8:45 instead of 9 to free up a little extra time for a 2 sprint race per class format?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:49 pm 
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This coming Monday we have a board meeting, at that time we will come up with a date for a race committee meeting to discuss the possibility of a two sprint race format. Although we will talk about it in the committee meeting, it looks like GT will still have an expert/ametuer because of grid size. We'll also discuss GTL and a two wave start for lightweight.
That's what I feel is on the table that is possible for this organization to consider.
Everyone's opinion has been great. A lot of passionate people in this club! We are looking for more help in marketing and PR if anyone wants to their bit for their club. A lot of people want to help but they find themselves on the track and want to know where else they can help outside of the weekends we enjoy together.

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