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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:24 pm 
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So I was reading through the Grom rules and came across the rule "no fuel controllers" yet it seems exhaust and intake mods are wide open.

For those in the know what's the reasoning behind not being able to fix your A/F ratio?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:21 am 
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The rules were pretty much copy/pasted from CMRA rules and that was what they were doing. With fuel tuners for the Grom, there is a VERY wide range of options available and they can give huge advantages. For example, the PCV on the Grom allows you to extend the revs by 250 RPM over stock. That surely doesnt sound like a lot, but it translates to 3-5 MPH on the top end for given factors and can be HUGE on a Grom. Its really frustrating sitting there in a draft, pegging off the rev limiter, while the person in front of you is still pulling away just because they are set to rev higher. Keeping the ECU stock ensures that everyone is held to the same limitations. Then, you have the Finbro ECU that allows you to rev out to like 13k. Ive seen Cameron hit almost 90 mph on his Grom because it just keeps revving.

Thats probably more info than you wanted, but the short answer is basically "To try to keep the racing close and keep costs down". Similar to how things were supposed to be with the 250 racing.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:09 pm 
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No it's exactly what I expected. I'm very aware of all those tuning options and many more. I think A/F control should be fair game but with most tuners once you have that you can control so many other variables like ignition advance, RPM, etc...

Yeah it would be super nice if everyone could just play in the 9-11hp range of basic air and exhaust mods and not create another arms race. But it's racing and I fear that will occur.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:30 am 
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Exactly. We want it to be to where anyone can compete without having to spend as much money on mods as they do on the bike itself. Haha

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:34 am 
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Should probably keep them totally stock then, including pipe and everything else?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Well the z125 ECU can be flashed. But then again it has a top speed limiter that the Grom does not. I think I might have a solution, I need to contact Woolich.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:09 pm 
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You're not going to turn it into a 165?!?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:07 pm 
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Me? No way...I'm hoping we can keep this as I stated above with machines as equal and affordable as possible.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:41 am 
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I would actually like to keep them all stock but it's just not practical. Most people at least have an exhaust. I was back and forth on intake mods. It's really tough to make rules that keep things fair, yet are inclusive so more people can join in.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:33 am 
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Don't most people also keep the stock exhaust? I can't imagine it would take more than about 5 minutes to swap one out on a Grom. But I could be wrong. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:06 am 
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Maybe not so tough to enforce the rules but perhaps we need to think about it in a different way. Please keep in mind this discussion is about what to do in the future as this year has a "fun" day format. I'm always thinking outside the box so I get "crazy" ideas every now and again :-)

My assumption is that most everyone will do exhaust for ~$150-$400, intake for ~$100, front SS brake line/pads ~$100. Some will do suspension, rear sets, bars and maybe an oil cooling mod.

Today, AFAIK no 1 has cracked the Grom ECU. Which means the physical evidence would be there for an external fuel controller. Rumor has it the Z125 ECU has been cracked so I expect Woolich, FT-ECU and many more to start offering packages. This may or may not result in Honda leaking the code to crack the Grom ECU. I expect we might see some Razkulls, which of course has jetting options.

It's easy to see changed values in an ECU. For instance, I can compare the custom ZX6R FT-ECU maps I created to a stock map at the press of a button.

If we required an ECU dongle and downloaded the podium finishers, it would be very easy to see allowed vs not allowed. If we partnered with Dynojet or Bazaaz, we could offer an equivalent option for Grom. Want to use a different controller or ECU? Too bad, not in our series.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:07 am 
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crash wrote:
Don't most people also keep the stock exhaust? I can't imagine it would take more than about 5 minutes to swap one out on a Grom. But I could be wrong. :)


About 20-30 minutes according to most reviews, which means 1.5 hours for me :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:26 am 
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I switch both of my ZX10Rs completely over from Street Fairings to Race fairings every track day. If they want to race putting the stock exhaust on shouldn't be too much of a problem. :) Also, question relating to fuel controller. If you DID force the stock exhaust wouldn't that make fuel controller mod policing less important? I mean how much can you really gain changing the maps if you stick to stock exhaust?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:49 am 
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The other point of these rules was to not get too carried away with things to enforce for an already busy staff. We have to keep in mind that this is just a fun race and nothing official. There is no podium, trophy, or money. Its totally an entertainment thing... at least, for now.

To be completely honest with all of you, I dont really care if people want to drop as much on mods as they spent on the bike to go out there and walk away from everyone else if that is their thing. I thought it would be MUCH better for entertainment - both for those watching and those riding - if the action was close. Be honest, would you guys be as excited about this if Cameron and I hadnt been so close at Hallett and the race spread out to where it basically became a Grom track day session?

As far as the stock exhaust swap goes, yes, it can be done at the track or before/after you take your bike to the track. I removed my headlight, tail light, and swapped exhausts over at Hallett all in about 30 min if you only count the time I was actually working and not getting distracted by having conversations with friends.

Todd, the "no fuel controller" rule is mostly to restrict rev limit increases. Its not really as much about power as much as its about drafting someone, slingshotting past them, then they have no chance of catching you back because you are able to keep revving while they are pinned on the rev limiter. For example, mod for mod, a Grom with a stock rev limiter will top out at 73 MPH on the gauge. Simply increasing the rev limit by 250 RPM allows you to go up to 76 MPH before you hit the limiter. On these tiny little bikes with 9-10hp, that can be like a half a straightaway difference in a single lap.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 am 
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Ah, I thought Steve said the Grom was unrestricted already, but I guess he was referring to a top speed limiter I think, and not a rev limiter. Also, don't count me in on the "excited" camp. I was just throwing out ideas. I am happy to see you guys excited about it however. I do enjoy watching some good Columbian hooliganism. :) I don't plan on getting a grom and participating, and only am on board with it if there is time and resources for it. I do think it's interesting because it's "something different".

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:31 am 
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Let me tell you why I'm excited about it. It's accessible racing and I think a great entry point for people interested in racing. It's rapidly growing and with the addition of a few go-kart tracks and maybe large empty parking lots or air fields it could produce real growth in our sport.

In order to be both competitive and accessible, I'd like to see a rules package that is both easily maintainable and accessible. If interest grows and we see grids of 20+ people we could easily support both a Supersport and Superbike rules package.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:35 am 
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crash wrote:
I switch both of my ZX10Rs completely over from Street Fairings to Race fairings every track day. If they want to race putting the stock exhaust on shouldn't be too much of a problem. :) Also, question relating to fuel controller. If you DID force the stock exhaust wouldn't that make fuel controller mod policing less important? I mean how much can you really gain changing the maps if you stick to stock exhaust?


Truth, but keep in mind people like to play with their toys including their exhausts, electronics, etc... Many riders have no mechanical ability or experience at the entry level. Also, I think there is something to be said for involving the vendors who do that type of stuff for people. I'm not sure how many would go for a stock rule set.

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Last edited by sdiver68 on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:37 am 
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green_bread wrote:
Todd, the "no fuel controller" rule is mostly to restrict rev limit increases. Its not really as much about power as much as its about drafting someone, slingshotting past them, then they have no chance of catching you back because you are able to keep revving while they are pinned on the rev limiter. For example, mod for mod, a Grom with a stock rev limiter will top out at 73 MPH on the gauge. Simply increasing the rev limit by 250 RPM allows you to go up to 76 MPH before you hit the limiter. On these tiny little bikes with 9-10hp, that can be like a half a straightaway difference in a single lap.


Z125 is speed restricted to 67mph regardless of RPM. I ran 1 downhill at the demo day last Saturday to prove it!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:45 am 
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sdiver68 wrote:
crash wrote:
I switch both of my ZX10Rs completely over from Street Fairings to Race fairings every track day. If they want to race putting the stock exhaust on shouldn't be too much of a problem. :) Also, question relating to fuel controller. If you DID force the stock exhaust wouldn't that make fuel controller mod policing less important? I mean how much can you really gain changing the maps if you stick to stock exhaust?


Truth, but keep in mind people like to play with their toys including their exhausts, electronics, etc... Many riders have no mechanical ability or experience at the entry level. Also, I think there is something to be said for involving the vendors who do that type of stuff for people. I'm not sure how many would go for a stock rule set.


But at this point we only let licensed racers enter who aren't really entry level. I'm just thinking if I just go out and buy a grom and don't want to spend a lot of extra money, I won't be throwing an exhaust on it without being able to change the fuel maps. I certainly wouldn't do that on my big bikes. Or I guess these are carbs/jets in which case just need to be rejetted?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:30 am 
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crash wrote:
But at this point we only let licensed racers enter who aren't really entry level. I'm just thinking if I just go out and buy a grom and don't want to spend a lot of extra money, I won't be throwing an exhaust on it without being able to change the fuel maps. I certainly wouldn't do that on my big bikes.


True, but hey it took the first fun event to get more of us talking about what the rules package including license requirements should be.

So far the tested AFR on the Groms with Intake/Exhaust but no controller seem to be within reason, mostly in the 14's, slightly lean but not ridiculous. That's based on all sorts of dyno and street AFR tests available online. I assume the Z125 will be similar. In order to get the Grom and Z125 on relatively equal footing and to optimize AFR I think that some type of limited ECU adjustment could be allowed.

Grom/Z125 are Fuel Injected, Razkull has Carbs.

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